Today, we try to figure out who is more powerful, Lucifer Morningstar or Destiny of the Endless.
In Comic Book Questions Answered, I answer whatever questions you folks might have about comic books (feel free to e-mail questions to me at [email protected]).
Reader NS wrote in to ask, “Is lucifer more powerful than destiny of the endless? It has definitely been implied but would really like a clear clarification for those still in doubt.”
Sure thing, NS.
“Who would win?” is obviously a very powerful thing for quite a lot of comic books fans. One of the things that made Marvel Comics stand out in the 1960s was their responsiveness to readers. The Superman titles were famous during the 1950s and 1960s for being extremely responsive to fans, but Stan Lee and Marvel took it one step further, by essentially DIRECTLY engaging with the fans (the Bullpen Bulletins soon became a staple of Marvel Comics). Lee clearly got a kick out of how enthusiastic the fans got about certain issues and in 1964’s Journey Into Mystery #112, he and Jack Kirby (with inker Chic Stone) devoted an entire Thor story to the way that the fans obsessed about who would win in a fight, Hulk or Thor. Kirby and Lee clearly understood just how important this was to fans, and honestly, I’m cool with it.
I have had some fun with comic book fights over the years in my “The Wrong Side” feature, where I spotlight times when the “wrong” person won a specific comic book fight, but really, I both A. understand that these things are never going to truly make cohesive sense, B. it can still be fun to try to make these things make as much sense as you can and C. Wasp can easily defeat the entirety of the X-Men and they’re lucky that she does not have her stingers at full capacity.
So when folks are all, “Whoever the writer wants to win will win,” then sure, obviously that’s true, but it doesn’t mean it still isn’t fun to try to figure out who “should” win.
That being said, when you start debating metaphysical characters, it gets REALLY difficult, as you’re really just one step ahead of, like, debating what is more powerful – charity or forgiveness. How do you even compare the two things? Neither of them ever fought Spider-Man, so we have no idea if desire is stronger than honor. And that’s sort of the area you get into when you debate the relative power levels of the Endless, the siblings who personify aspects of the universe.
However, that is what NS wants, so that’s what we’ll try to do!
Okay, first thing’s first, this one almost wraps things up right from the start, as in Sandman #22 (by Neil Gaiman, Kelley Jones and Malcolm Jones III), Dream of the Endless is asked about Lucifer and he notes that Lucifer is the second-most powerful being in the universe, behind only God himself…
Interestingly, Dream had previously bluffed his way out of hell in Sandman #4, and it at least brings up the question of why Lucifer let him do so. In any event, Dream goes to hell and visits Lucifer in the next issue and he is clearly scared shitless of Lucifer. He’s literally flop sweating…
Now, Dream of the Endless is pretty dang powerful and Lucifer makes him flop sweat. That says a lot, right?
Saying even more is when Dream’s older sister, Death, appeared in Lucifer #26 (by Mike Carey, Peter Gross and Ryan Kelly) and even though Lucifer was in bad shape from an earlier battle, he easily notes to Death that she has no power over him and she agrees…
More powerful than DEATH is pretty darn powerful, right?
Okay, so let’s examine Destiny a bit. Destiny is quite powerful, but as Sandman: Endless Nights (by Gaiman and Frank Quitely) points out, Destiny is really more of a servant to destiny itself (personified in his book) than he is control of things himself…
Therefore, while it is apparently true that the last two beings in the universe before it is destroyed will be Destiny and Death, with Destiny dying with the universe itself (and Death headed off to somewhere else), that is just because that’s his role and not because he is so powerful.
Meanwhile, in Lucifer #52 (by Carey, Gross and Kelly), we actually see Lucifer destroy a piece of Destiny’s book…
That, though, does not keep Lucifer from being bound by his own destiny…
At the end of the series, though, in Lucifer #75, we learn that Lucifer is now beyond the Book of Destiny and is telling his own story, truly…
Amusingly, in a recent Lucifer series by Dan Watters, Brian Level and Dee Cunniffe, we see Lucifer literally remove himself from Destiny’s book…
I don’t think that new series exactly counts to the question as we’re wondering, as it seems to be in a sort of new continuity, ya know? But whatever, the end result is that it sure seems like Lucifer is more powerful than Destiny, so I think that that is the answer.
Spider-Man could probably beat up both of them, though.
Thanks for the question, NS!
If anyone else has a comic book related question, just drop me a line at [email protected]!
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