THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 41, Season 13
Sunday, June 23, 2024
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner
Inside Politics Panel:
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail, Ottawa Bureau Chief
Stephanie Levitz, Toronto Star, Ottawa Deputy Bureau Chief
Location:
Ottawa Studio
Mercedes Stephenson: The RCMP is Canada’s front line defence against national security threats. But as those threats become more common and more complex, how are the Mounties dealing with them?
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. The West Block starts now.
Terrorism, cyber-crime, and foreign interference are huge responsibilities, all under the RCMP umbrella. We sit down with the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Mike Duheme, to talk national security.
Speaker of the House: “The House shall stand adjourned.”
Mercedes Stephenson: And the House has risen for the summer. What were the highs and lows? And what’s in the future for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau?
Our inside politics panels joins us to wrap up the session.
It’s one of the world’s most recognizable police forces, and when it comes to the law, the RCMP is the face of Canada in global security circles, and that includes the Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance, alongside the U.S., U.K., Australia, and New Zealand, and the International Criminal Police Organization–INTERPOL.
The RCMP is seeing unprecedented threats according to senior sources from national security to foreign interference, and it’s putting the pressure on the force like never before.
Mike Duheme joined the front lines of the force 37 years ago, and officially became the commissioner two months ago, after several months as interim leader.
Thanks so much for joining us, commissioner.
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: Thanks for having me, Mercedes.
Mercedes Stephenson: If you had to describe the complexity of the national security picture and the threats, what would you say?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: I’d say when you’re looking at the complexity is far greater than what we’ve seen before because of technology, because of the cyber aspect of everything, but also—and CSIS had shared this—the concern with IMVEs, the Ideologically Motivated Violent Extremists that we’ve seen arise within the country and that is a challenge sometimes because people are being radicalized in their basement, at home, where nobody’s aware of it. And sometimes people will report people. Sometimes we’re lucky with intelligence, but that is a concern with the type of environment we’re actually working on.
Mercedes Stephenson: And when you speak of IMVEs, the average Canadian will probably call that terror groups largely. They can be far-right. They could be Hamas or ISIS affiliated. There’s a whole range, but there’s a desire to carry out violence in the name of religion or of ideology. There was a very serious terror plot here just before Christmas in which you arrested a teenager, and I know a lot of it hasn’t been made public, but there were explosives: TATP. It was a fairly advanced plot that included dates and targets in Ottawa. After October 7th, I feel like we haven’t talked a lot about terrorism in Canada. What is the threat level there?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: Well, you look at—I’m not going to comment too much on the file—but here’s another example where law enforcement’s a service and international partners work well together. The threat right now, obviously October 7 changed the landscape, especially when it comes to hate crime. You look at the incidents that are happening in major cities. It’s taxing for police resources that are there because you’re seeing a number of demonstrations exceeding the number that they’re normally used to.
Mercedes Stephenson: One of the concerns, I know our Five Eyes partners have is foreign interference and it’s such a broad topic, so I want to take it step by step on that one. The first one I wanted to ask you about is one that I hear about from senior national security sources regularly, and that is the concern that organized crime in Canada is actually being used to conduct foreign interference for states like Iran or China, not only to carry out operations but in some cases to carry out assassinations. Is that a threat that you’re seeing?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: It is a concern and again, it’s a concern of the Five Eyes and you’re seeing that around the world. If you recall several months ago, the U.S. indicted two Canadians with regards to they were approached by Iran, a contract to actually kill an individual. These two people are well-known in the outlaw motorcycle world. They were in prison. So it just demonstrates what’s going on and there are others as well that causes concern.
Mercedes Stephenson: When you look at foreign interference, we keep hearing from the government that not to worry about the allegations on members of Parliament because, you know, the RCMP will look into things. But again, I hear from senior sources that it is not as simple as it’s being portrayed. That there are not necessarily laws on the books that would allow for all the MPs in question on what’s being described, which of course, none of us in the public have seen, to be charged criminally. Is it realistic to hand this file to you and say you’ll take care of foreign interference with MPs?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: I’ve read the report. There was not enough elements at the time to switch—to forward the file to the RCMP. Since then, I’ve asked Deputy Commissioner Mark Flynn, who’s in charge of the national security program, just to circle back to the service to see if there’s any significant change on the landscape. But, you know, I’ve been hearing everything that’s going on since the report was tabled and I think we’ve got to be cautious about a right to know and a need to know. And I understand parliamentary privilege to a certain extent, but if we start disclosing a lot of the secret information, the top secret information, there’s trade crafts involved in that. There’s people’s lives that could be at risk because sometimes information could come from a single source. So I think we really have to be mindful and we have to be mindful about the impact it will have on our international partners who are supplying some of that information.
Mercedes Stephenson: You mentioned in your testimony, I believe it was last week, fairly recently that you had a number of contracts you were investigating, criminal investigations. Of course, we all know about the ArriveCAN investigation but that it went beyond that, federal contracts that could potentially be fraudulent. Can you tell us what that’s about?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: Following the complaint that we had received, and then there was a second complaint that was received, we’ve received several other complaints from departments with regards to procurement process in which our teams are investigating.
Mercedes Stephenson: The reality is you don’t have a lot of people to carry out these investigations. What is the situation for the RCMP as you try to be both the traffic cops who stop people and give tickets and also the FBI investigating organized crime and terror organizations?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: The reality is, Mercedes, if you asked any chiefs of police across this country, do you have enough resources? They would all say no, because we always want to do more. The reality is I have a budget to respect and we have a pool of resources to which—and it’s always been like this in law enforcement—you’ve got to prioritize the work that needs to be done. And we assign the resources to the priority in line with public safety.
Mercedes Stephenson: But what affect does that have on your front line officers?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: The RCMP is predominantly in rural areas, but in larger cities, the conversation I’ve been having with the chiefs of police is they’re getting tired, getting tired. It’s taxing.
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Mercedes Stephenson: Are you concerned about the increase in hate crimes and the increase in what many in the Jewish community have described as intimidating activity outside the homes, outside their synagogues, outside places other than the Israeli embassy or Israeli consulates?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: I am concerned because we’ve seen a spike since October and this is no different than all chiefs of police from across the country. But again, we’re working collaboratively together and we’re addressing the situation the best we can.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you feel the law is being enforced as it could be?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: I think we could probably do more. I think we could probably do more and a little bit more aggressive when we’re looking at what kind of charges that can be laid to a certain individual. And I share this with many people that protesting in front of a member of Parliament’s office is one thing, or on Parliament Hill is another, but when you’re protesting in front of a resident of an elected official, or a senior government official, I think that’s where you cross the line and that’s intimidation and even harassment. And that’s, I think, we have to be more aggressive.
Mercedes Stephenson: And just here in Ottawa last week, there was an upside triangle painted on the Jewish Community Centre. The upside triangle is a military symbol that Hamas and related military units use to mark targets. I know the RCMP are looking into that. Can you tell me if you have any information or how aggressively you’re pursuing that?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: So what starts off as a hate crime, usually it’s police jurisdiction. In this case, it would be Ottawa Police Service that are investigating. And we will bring a national security team just working side by side with them because if there’s an ideology behind it that we can prove it, then you go into terrorist—you can go into different terrorist charges. So we work hand in hand with POJs across the country when it comes to that. It starts up with hate crimes, but sometimes it boils up as to much more than just a hate crime.
Mercedes Stephenson: Are you concerned that any of these protests could lead to violence?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: Oh, for sure. There’s—any protests when you have a number of people together against a common cause, you have the potential to escalate—that the situation is going to escalate. I find that law enforcement across the country are doing a good job with their liaison program, where they liaise with the organizers to make sure it doesn’t get to a point where it gets violent.
Mercedes Stephenson: You’ve mentioned politicians and the threats to them. Marco Mendicino was spit on near Parliament last week. There was a video of this online. And you mentioned the threats to politicians. The justice ministers kind of pushed back on your assessment that there need to be new laws. He says you have everything you need on the books. Do you agree with him?
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: I think—I don’t disagree with Minister Virani. I think what we have to look at is the totality of the environment we’re operating in, and even though there’s a criminal threshold to be met, but I’m not quite sure if we’re assessing the totality of the environment for the thresholds. Because as I said earlier, just going in front of a member—elected official or a high senior government official with regards to one time in front of the residence, it might not constitute harassment. But if you take the factors that are going on, the geo-political factors that are going on, the number of demos—I mean, that’s in itself—it’s intimidation or harassment, but I just think that if we are going to start addressing this, I think we have to take a more aggressive approach.
Mercedes Stephenson: Commissioner Duheme, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.
Mike Duheme, RCMP Commissioner: Thanks, Mercedes.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, the House has risen for the summer. Our inside politics panel gives us their highlights and lowlights of the session.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: The House of Commons session is over after a tumultuous time on Parliament Hill.
Speaker of the House: “I wish everyone a safe and restful summer and time to connect with their constituents and with your loved ones.”
Mercedes Stephenson: From leaders sparring over the economy…
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “We’re stepping up for Canadians. They’re stepping up for the rich.” [Cheering]
Pierre Poilievre, Conservative Leader: “Why is it that every time he mentions the middle class, they get poor?”
Mercedes Stephenson: And members weary of each other over foreign interference…
Frank Caputo, Conservative—Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo: “This places a cloud of suspicion over every single member of the House—elected members.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Now, MPs have risen for the summer break, hitting the barbeque circuit in their ridings, while the Conservative leader has hit the road.
Pierre Poilievre has loaded his family into an RV for a campaign style summer tour. Kicking it off in Montreal where his party hasn’t held a seat on the island since 1988.
The prime minister meantime is facing a crucial by-election tomorrow in the heart of Toronto. Traditionally a Liberal stronghold, all eyes will be watching how the Liberals do this time in the riding of Toronto—St. Paul’s.
To chat about this, and the big wins and losses of this parliamentary session are Bob Fife of The Globe and Mail, and Stephanie Levitz from the Toronto Star. Great to have you both back on the show. Welcome.
Stephanie Levitz, Toronto Star, Ottawa Deputy Bureau Chief: Hi.
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail, Ottawa Bureau Chief: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: It has been a political season like no other. It’s been incredibly busy, all kinds of scandals, controversies, polls moving all over the place. We wanted to ask both of you your thoughts on the top stories, the ones that stood out to you. Steph, starting with you.
Stephanie Levitz, Toronto Star, Ottawa Deputy Bureau Chief: I mean the overarching narrative I think since the House came back has been the economy and the fight over it. Who’s doing what? Who’s doing too much? Who’s doing enough? Who is responsible for what’s going on? The Liberals really trying to change the narrative for the attacks that Pierre Poilievre has been lobbing at them for so long about them being responsible for everything that’s going wrong in the economy, trying to regain some footing, some confidence amongst Canadians that they have this issue under control. Finally seizing on housing, finally seizing on the idea of, you know, sort of generational fairness, looking out for younger Canadians. These of course, both being two issues that Pierre Poilievre has been very strong on and leading in such a way that, you know, polls have him somewhere between 14 points and 20 points ahead of the Liberals, which is crushing for them.
Mercedes Stephenson: Bob, what stands out? I mean obviously economy huge, too. What else do you think?
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail, Ottawa Bureau Chief: Well first of all, she’s right. The number one priority for Canadians is the economy. That’s the issue where the Liberals have tried to fight back and are losing. It’s the one issue that Mr. Poilievre has been able to win on. But for me, I think there’s an issue that Canadians have won on and that’s foreign interference. We’ve—starting last year, when Global and The Globe and Mail did a series of stories on classified documents that outlaying the extent of Chinese foreign interference in the 2019 and 2020 elections. We had a government that dragged its feet, accused—did not want to do anything on that. Finally, we forced a public inquiry and more significantly, it forced the government after the first report from Justice Hogue on our public inquiry. We’ve got legislation that is just passed the Senate. It’s been sworn into law and it’s very important because we now have—will have a foreign agent registry. We’re going to make foreign interference a criminal offence, which will finally give the RCMP the tools to be able to investigate and charge people. And CSIS is now going to change the mandate so they can tail people who are being targeted, or parliamentarians, more of what is actually going on. So all of this, to me, has been a big win for the Canadian people. It’s not something this government wanted to have happen. But finally, we’re getting some real significant movement on this.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well when I look both the economy and foreign interference, both of them track to Justin Trudeau. He’s someone who’s been front and centre on the file. Of course, he’s the prime minister. How much do you think these issues have stuck to him and that makes him really our top story of the season?
Stephanie Levitz, Toronto Star, Ottawa Deputy Bureau Chief: Well I mean, take foreign interference as an example, right? The common thread through all of this is that ultimately in our country, the prime minister has direct responsibility over only a few things. And one of those things is national security. The buck stops with Justin Trudeau on the foreign interference file. He is the one who absolutely knows what all the intelligence says, who knows all the names, who can know whatever he wants to know. He can pick up the phone and call David Vigneault whenever he feels like it and say hey, you know, tell me about this thing. And so the fact that the government was refusing and dithering and dallying and ducking, and all of the D words I could possibly come up with turning this into a dumpster fire, to borrow another D word, it says something about this government’s competence, I guess is my overarching point, right? It is fair to say that they alone are not responsible for the economic ills facing this nation. It is complex. It is difficult. It is international. It’s about everything from conflict, like global conflict to the weather. They can’t control for that. What they can control for is the safety and security of our country. And so when arguments are being put to Mr. Trudeau about foreign interference, about defence spending, about issues like that, and his competence is being questioned, that’s where it becomes so difficult. And so when you have that line of argument, and you also have that parallel argument happening on the economy—hey buddy, you know, you’re making my life worse. And the Liberals being unable to I think explain to people in a nice clean way when it doesn’t seem like they’re making excuses but actually explaining why not all of this is their fault, it puts them in a really tough position.
Mercedes Stephenson: Bob, the number one question that I get asked by friends, family, viewers, when I run into them outside of work is, is Justin Trudeau going to stay on as the prime minister? How does all of this affect his political future?
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail, Ottawa Bureau Chief: Well you’re absolutely right because this is all that anybody in this town is talking about, not only in this town but anywhere. And you’ve hit the nail on the head. The government is tired now. It’s had nine years. It’s reached the end of the road. And all Canadian governments, whatever political stripe, by the time they get to nine to ten years, they’re finished. And Mr. Trudeau is at a point now where I don’t think he can say anything because I don’t—that anybody will either believe or listen to him anymore. I think people are just shut off from listening to him. That’s not to say that the Liberal Party is dead or that it can’t—they can’t beat Mr. Poilievre. But they can’t—I don’t think they can do it with Justin Trudeau. I think he’s just—people have had it with him and as they have with other leaders. So it has nothing to do with a political party or political preference, it’s just that’s the way our political system operates. But if the Liberals can—and I think he’s got ‘til August. If he decides in August to go, then there’s enough time. But if he stays after August, there’s not going to be time to organize a leadership convention and I think we should just accept the fact that he’s serious about running and he’ll meet his own fate when the election is called. But if he does go, there’s going—we’re going to be able to have some very attractive candidates out there. You know Philip Francois-Champagne, for example, the innovation minister. Mélanie Joly. Mark Carney, the former Bank of Canada and Bank of England governor. Chrystia Freeland. There’s some very competent people out there. And if I was Mr. Poilievre, I’d be wishing for Mr. Trudeau to stay.
Mercedes Stephenson: Steph, one of the things that I hear from the Liberal insiders is that they believe part of the reason Justin Trudeau is sticking around is because he genuinely hates Pierre Poilievre, and it’s personal and he wants to run against him. Whatever you think of those two politicians, they’re both battling it out and Mr. Poilievre, of course, is out in an RV—interesting strategy—with his wife, two beautiful children, going around Quebec, glad handing, meeting people. I’m curious to know what you think of Mr. Poilievre’s future in light of Mr. Trudeau’s target on him.
Stephanie Levitz, Toronto Star, Ottawa Deputy Bureau Chief: I mean the Quebec summer tour, [00:08:17] for elections past that the Conservatives believe their on the cusp of a breakthrough in Quebec and they’re absolutely going to do it, and they have a strategy and they’re going to get these votes. And Mr. Poilievre, I think is like leaders, you know, before him who’ve put a lot of time and energy into Quebec. And one of the interesting things about Quebec for Mr. Poilievre, of course, it’s the one place in the country where his poll numbers haven’t taken off like a rocket. And some of that is about the complex politics in Quebec, the presence of the Bloc Quebecois. But he clearly wants to make inroads there. You know, last summer was really the summer for Mr. Poilievre to go and introduce himself to Canadians. He was coming out of his first parliamentary, you know, two sessions as a leader. No one really knew him yet. It was hey, meet me. Here’s my story. He ditched his glasses. He got new suits. He was the “introduce me” tour. This summer, you have to look and wonder what is the ultimate goal for the Poilievre Conservatives. Have they peaked in popularity? That is possible. Polls can only move so much. How do they keep that momentum? How do they broaden out their base of support, keep their base motivated and engaged if we are in fact, not looking at an election ‘til the fall of 2025, which seems realistic. Mr. Poilievre has to keep people believing in him. And if the key thing—you now, if there’s two key things that are driving his support, one is a sense that the Liberals have lost control of the economy. And two, is just exhaustion with the current Liberal government. The exhaustion’s not going to go away, but the economy could get better. And it really takes some of the punch out of Mr. Poilievre’s argument that he’s going to put in front of Canadians.
Mercedes Stephenson: Last word to you, Bob. We just have a few seconds left, but your thoughts on the Poilievre RV summer tour.
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail, Ottawa Bureau Chief: Well look, I think it’s really a smart move because last summer, to Stephanie’s point, is that his numbers shot up when people got to see the Pierre Poilievre that we didn’t see—that they often see in the House of Common being very partisan. But they saw a warmer, humorous family man and his numbers shot up and they’ve pretty much stayed that way. In Quebec, the numbers have gone up but not enough to really threaten the Bloc or the Liberals, but they’re shooting up. And this was a smart move on his behalf to introduce himself to Quebecers. His wife is fully bilingual, from Quebec—originally from Venezuela. So I’m going to be very interested to see after this tour how the polls react to his summer tour.
Mercedes Stephenson: We’ll all be interesting in seeing, of course, which way Toronto—St. Paul goes, a possible indicator for Justin Trudeau’s future and how Pierre Poilievre is received.
We’ll have you both back here in the fall to take a look at what to expect in the year ahead. Thanks for a fantastic season.
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail, Ottawa Bureau Chief: Thanks. Have a good summer.
Stephanie Levitz, Toronto Star, Ottawa Deputy Bureau Chief: You too. Have a great summer.
Mercedes Stephenson: The House will resume sitting on September 16th and this is our last show until then.
Coming up, I’ll have my thoughts on the season that was.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last thing…
As we head into summer, when politicians hit the barbeque and parade circuits, we’ll enter our annual summer hiatus.
I want to thank some of the people who have worked on this show. You don’t see them but they deserve the credit.
Our control room is in Edmonton, making us a truly national show. To Clinton, the Edmonton team, thank you for being the voice in my ear.
Our camera people, editors and engineers solve endless technical gremlins, come in early and leave late. Frank, Luigi, Haslett, Kaz, Diana, Justin, Aiden and Tony, the show wouldn’t make air without you.
Thanks to Sarah who makes us all look great on camera.
And this show is put together by an incredible team of producers: show producer Denise, who is the host wrangler, enricher of content, and the calmest person I know; executive producer Bernadette, whose passion and dedication have elevated The West Block. She prefers to be behind the scenes, meticulously supervising to deliver the quality show our viewers deserve; and producer Sophall, whose gentle spirit and sharp mind have saved me more times than I can count.
We also want to remember a dear friend of the show who passed away suddenly last week: Mark Blanchard. Mark was our brilliant, quirky, miracle producing, generous technical producer at Global News. He was a legend in the news industry. Mark got this show to air from Latvia to Ukraine, not to mention all over North America. He found ways to get cameras and live feeds to guests world-wide. We will always hear Mark’s voice guiding us but we will miss him so much. Our thoughts are with his family. Thanks for everything, Mark.
We’ll see you back here in September.